A new procedure has been introduced into the European parliament, to try to enliven the rather sterile and formulaic plenary “debates”, which tend to be little more than members reading short prepared speeches into the record as a basis for a press release. During any member’s speech, another member may now raise a Green Card, to ask to pose a question. The member speaking can take it or leave it.
During last week’s Copenhagen climate debate (see below), sceptics made several references to recent cold winters. So Lib-Dem MEP Chris Davies (he’s the one who once asked the police to arrest him for possession of a small quantity of cannabis — they told him to go home and stop wasting their time) raised his green card. The speaker gave way, and Chris asked “Whether the speaker would care to explain the difference between climate and weather?”. He then sat down with a self-satisfied smile, clearly believing that he had struck a decisive blow for climate alarmism.
But it is worth recalling that the whole climate scare is largely based on two-and-a-half decades between the mid seventies and 1998, when admittedly the mean global temperature appeared to rise quite rapidly (though satellite measurements, regarded by many climatologists as much more inclusive and reliable than terrestrial data, show a much smaller rise). Bear in mind that in 1974 the American CIA produced an internal report on the security implications of global cooling, following three decades of declining temperatures, little realising that they were on the cusp of an up-turn.
Warmists will argue that temperatures have been broadly trending upwards for 150 years, and they are right. But the effect is small (only 0.7 degrees C in the past 100 years) and irregular. It is also exactly what you would expect as the world recovers from the Little Ice Age in the 17th and 18th centuries.
Many climatologists see climate as cyclical, and driven by both terrestrial cycles (like the Pacific Decadal Oscillation) and astronomical cycles, especially solar cycles. Temperature over the last 100 years correlates rather well with solar activity, rather poorly with atmospheric CO2 levels. If so, this would explain why mean global temperatures have been static or declining since 1998. Given that the sun seems to be entering a quiet phase, many scientists are now anticipating cooling, not warming, in coming decades.
So we may turn Mr. Davies’ question straight back on himself. If 25 years of warming constitute climate change, how many years of cooler “weather” does it take until he will admit that the climate cycle has turned, and that warming is not a one-way process — and still less a “runaway” process beset with “tipping points”?
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25 years of warming don’t constitute climate change. You’re arguing a point that is irrelevant. It’s global climate destabilisation that is the term for the changes we are witnessing relating to unusual weather phenomena and increased instability in global weather systems. In addition, your point about solar cycles is correct, up until 1950. After 1950, solar cycles do not match temperature trends but conveniently, this seems to be ignored by anyone using the solar cycles theory to disprove anthropomorphic climate change. The global cooling theory is entirely plausible due to global dimming, a term which describes the cooling effect of particulate matter in the atmosphere. Particulate matter, incidentally, that has mainly been produced through human activity. I believe Chris Davies was making a point about the relaxed attitude of the police towards ‘low-level’ drug users, but I guess that went straight over your head.
Does it not seem strange to you that as we experience more unusual environmental changes resulting in humanitarian crises, like in Haiti, the economy also hits the lowest point in 30 years? Global climate is linked to global populations and the global economy. You can’t support one without supporting the other two so maybe it’s time to stop debating the issue and try and do something positive, just in case…
Some very ignorant people attributed the Boxing Day Tsunami to climate change, though tsunamis are caused by earthquakes and tectonic plate movement, and have absolutely nothing whatever to do with climate. And I am afraid, Phil, that you compound that error when you add “like haiti”. That was an EARTHQUAKE, and again nothing to do with climate.
Incidentally, the same goes for coastal flooding in Bangladesh, which results primarily from a lowering of the land (subduction of the eastern edge of the Indian plate below the smaller Burmese plate), and very little to do with sea level rise or climate.
I think Mr Ball was trying to say that the effect of AGW on humanity would be of a similar nature to that of the earthquake in Haiti.
He also said that it was an ‘environmental change’ not as you interpreted it an anthropogenic environmental change.
Could you provide a link to where the mainstream media said that the boxing day tsunami was caused by AGW? I have asked you this before and I am starting to think you made it up.
While your at it, can you reference the coastal flooding bit too?
Roger, I do believe you have taken the example of a humanitarian crisis out of context in order to undermine my integrity. Would you care to compose a relevant response to the points I raised in my comment? I’m interested in seeing what you have to say.
Your take on Mr. Davies is rather generous. I think it was a silly little piece of self-publicity that back-fired. I do think I’m entitled to reply to you in my own terms rather than yours. You chose to link an earthquake, and the recession, to climate change, which is even more fanciful than Warmists usually are, and helps to bring climate hysteria into disrepute. It is just not true that global weather patterns are becoming less stable (though it is true that insurance claims are going up — because more people build in dangerous areas and have more property to insure). This is one of those claims that you believe simply because it is repeated very often — rather like the Himalayan glaciers story, which the IPCC has had to admit is nonsense.
Your take on Mr. Davies is rather cynical, if you don’t mind me saying so.
If replying in your own terms means ‘avoiding the issue’ then by all means do so, it’s a free country after all.
I used Haiti as an example of a humanitarian crisis, not a climate change induced event. Plus, when did I mention that I was a ‘warmist’. I haven’t once supported the theory of global warming, but if you want to make assumptions about my beliefs then feel free. Whilst you are fixated on an out-of-context point and trying to stick as many anti-environmentalist labels on me as possible, many of the points I raised remain unanswered.
With regards to global climate destabilisation, you say it simply isn’t true and make the assumption that I have not formed this opinion of my own accord. That assumption is wrong, as is the ‘truth’ you believe you are stating.
Using the Himalayan glaciers story to back your point up would have been good, but I’m not debating the global warming theory.
As you’ve pointed out in a comment below, there are research papers supporting both sides of the climate change debate so should we not simply move on to the issue of risk management, rather than debating theory?
Climate has been changing for millions of years. The modest 20th century warming of around 0.6 deg C is well within natural variation over the past 1,000 years. Mann’s hockey stick was at best mistaken and wholly misleading conveniently smoothing out the Medieval Warm Period and a mini-ice age. This totally discredited artifact was removed by the IPCC following debunking by Prof McKitrick and Steve McIntyre.
The comments of many eminent IPCC participant scientists (including its past vice president, Dr Yuri Israel) followed by Climategate and the Himalayan Glaciier debacle would have finished most highly suspect organisations. But the delusions of green activists enable politicians to excuse the green tax hike onslaught and carbon trading.
The whole thing is a scam..as Mr Bloom of UKIP stated very clearly “scam scam scam.”
I decided to take a look at the IPCC AR4 WG1 (as opposed to WG2) and low and behold, Michael Mann’s hockey stick graph is still there (page 35 of the link or page 467 of the report). You may have missed it because of the 11 other graphs that prove the hockey stick is correct.
As Bob Ward (policy director at the Grantham Research Institute on Climate Change) said
“Unless climate sceptics can demonstrate there is a negligible danger, then most sensible people will insist we should take careful, cost-effective measures now to avoid the possibility of disaster in future.”
I notice that you haven’t provided any evidence Rod.
As a side note, you may be interested in the Green Fiscal Commission who say that we should be replacing income tax with green taxes in a revenue neutral way. This would mean no extra tax at all.
You totally discredit your position by trying to defend the hockey stick, Phil. If I may paraphrase Bob Ward “Until climate hysterics can demonstrate that the danger is real, and that proposed mitigation measures might have some effect, we may as well save our money”. In spite of Stern, most serious economists think that the proposed costs of mitigation greatly exceed any conceivable benefit (see Mendelsohn’s piece in the Spectator, Dec 5th, for example). Most seem to think that even if AGW were true, the best response is adaptation as we go (see also Lawson, An Appeal to Reason, and No, he’s not a scientist, but he knows more than you and I do about economics). You don’t buy insurance when the premium exceeds the risk.
You haven’t provided any references to why the hockey stick is discredited. You have only pointed to articles about Michael Mann. I have provided a link to 11 other studies that all back up the ‘Hockey Stick’.
You have shown a shocking lack of evidence.
I have already responded to the Mendelsohn article here.
P.S. I notice you didn’t respond to the Green Fiscal Commission reports.
There is no runaway global warming; no alarming ice melt; no significant rise in sea levels (ref Dr Nils-Axel Morner) no increase in tropical storms (ref Dr Chris Landsea)…it’s all ALARMIST HYPE. Alarmists will wilfully blame every natural disaster on climate change, expert scientists dispute this time and again.
Prophets of doom like Hansen and Gore set the scene for this ‘climate of blame’ on human emissions. It’s all failing to materialise. The GC models cannot predict REALITY because they have given far too much weighting to CO2, linking it to a highly speculative and scientifically challenged feedback mechanism through water vapour (the principal GHG).
So what do these ‘alarmists’ have to gain? I’m keen to reduce my negative impact on the environment and I try and encourage my peers to do likewise. Does that make me an alarmist, and if so, what would I have to gain from it?
Oh come on Phil — get real. The CRU has had $20 million of funding, Pachauri’s TERI institute has received massive sums from the US and the EU, they’ve all got prestige and incomes and high profiles and respect — and you ask what they have to gain? Acadermics wil tell you they can’t get funding or appointments or publication unless they genuflect to the orthodoxy. There are now millions of people, from carbon traders to green journalists, whose jobs depend on the scam.
You still haven’t made it clear what I have to gain from taking actions to reduce my impact on the environment.
I have gained significantly from tackling climate change:
My fuel bills are lower because of the insulation in my house.
The money I spent on a car now gets spent on having great holidays in europe.
I have quit my gym membership and now cycle to work.
The vegetables I grow in my garden are tastier and cheaper than those from the supermarket.
Rod, what do you know about peak oil? It’s an open question and I’m curious as to your answer.
Of course I am familiar with the concept, and I am in favour of reducing our dependence on imported fossil fuels, for security and economic reasons. That’s why I favour nuclear, and indigenous coal. The oil will run out one day, but all the alarmist estimates for the world running out of food and other resources have proved to be overstated. I suspect fossil fuels will last at least until we have nuclear fusion. And remember that the stone age didn’t end because we ran out of stones. It ended because we moved on to better technologies.
I didn’t ask you, Roger, I was asking Rod. Seeing as you picked this up though, I may as well make a few points regarding your response.
Can I just point out that rocks are ubiquitous, oil isn’t.
Secondly, I’m pleased to hear you support the use of nuclear power and indigenous coal. It must mean that you can explain the ethics of burying nuclear waste in underground storage bunkers and the implications of using such an inefficient source of power as coal.
In regards to Nils-Axel Morner, I thought you should hear the other side of the story, here, here and here is a peer reviewed study saying the opposite.
Would you like me to go through Chris Landsea’s claims too?
First you ask for references to peer-reviewed science. Then when you get them, you quote counter-arguments as though that settled the matter. This is a debate. We know there are papers on both sides. Meantime, the world just keeps getting cooler, regardless of any number of peer-reviewed papers.
I don’t think you quite grasp the wealth of evidence that contradicts Morner. I am astonished that you would believe someone who undertakes paranormal activities (Dowsing).
However, there seems to be plenty of evidence to contradict him:
CSIRO
Geophysical Research Letters: Church & White
EPA
TOPEX/Poseiden
D. P. Chambers a; J. C. Ries a; T. J. Urban
The best response is this wonderfully written, peer reviewed rebuke of Morner’s methods: Comment on “Estimating future sea level change from past records”
by Nils-Axel Mörner
Are you gonna trust the Hazel twig man?
Oops I forgot to mention all the articles that Nerem et al mentioned:
Antonov, J.I., Levitus, S., Boyer, T.P., 2002. Steric sea level variations
during 1957–1994: importance of salinity. J. Geophys. Res. 107
(C12) art. no.-8013.
Cazenave, A., Nerem, R.S., 2004. Present-day sea level change:
observations and causes. Rev. Geophys. 42, RG3001. doi:10.1029/
2003RG000139.
Chambers, D.P., Ries, J.C., Shum, C.K., Tapley, B.D., 1998. On the
use of tide gauges to calibrate altimeter drift. J. Geophys. Res. 103,
12885–12890.
Chambers, D.P., Hayes, S.A., Ries, J.C., Urban, T.J., 2003. New TOPEX
Sea State Bias models and their effect on global mean sea level.
J. Geophys. Res. 108 (C10), 3305. doi:10.1029/2003JC001839.
Dyurgerov, M.B.,Meier,M.F., 2000. Twentieth century climate change:
evidence from small glaciers. Proc. Nat. Acad. of Sci. U. S. A. 97
(4), 1406–1411.
Keihm, S.J., Zlotnicki, V., Ruf, C.S., 2000. TOPEX microwave
radiometer performance evaluation. IEEE Trans. Geosci. Remote
Sens. 38, 1379–1386.
Krabill, W., Hanna, E., Huybrechts, P., Abdalati, W., Cappelen, J.,
Csatho, B., Frederick, E., Manizade, S., Martin, C., Sonntag, J.,
Swift, R., Thomas, R., Yungel, J., 2004. Greenland ice sheet:
increased coastal thinning. Geophys. Res. Lett. 31 (24).
Leuliette, E.W., Nerem, R.S., Mitchum, G.T., 2004. Calibration of
TOPEX/Poseidon and Jason altimeter data to construct a
continuous record of mean sea level change. Mar. Geod. 27 (12),
79–94.
Levitus, S., Antonov, J.I., Wang, J., Delworth, T.L., Dixon, K.W.,
Broccoli, A.J., 2001. Anthropogenic warming of the earth3s
climate system. Science 292, 267–270.
Mitchum, G.T., 1998. Monitoring the stability of satellite altimeters
with tide gauges. J. Atmos. Ocean. Technol. 15, 721–730.
Mitchum, G.T., 2000. An improved calibration of satellite altimetric
heights using tide gauge sea levels with adjustment for land
motion. Mar. Geod. 23, 145–166.
One for you, Phil. The IPCC 2007 report says the world “suffered rapidly rising costs due to extreme weather-related events since the 70s”. But the source document was not published nor peer-reviewed, and came with the caveat “We find insufficient evidence to claim a statistical relationship between global temperature increase and catastrophe losses”. Roger Pielke, Prof. of Environmental Studies at Colorado University, says “All the literature published before and since the IPCC report shows that rising disaster losses can be explained entirely by social change. People have been looking hard for evidence that global warming plays a part, but can’t find it”. Daily Telegraph report, today.
Which part of AR4 did that come from, was it WG1, WG2, WG3 or WG4?
I agree with Pielke, but I don’t think that means there is not a causal relationship between higher temperatures and extreme weather events. I think that science is not advanced enough to prove them.
I am really happy the IPCC are withdrawing the Glacier comment from WG2. It proves that climate change isn’t a religion, but is instead a science that is subject to revision in the light of new evidence or the discovery of inaccuracies.
Phil, You can’t say that you agree with Pielke, and then go on to say the opposite. We now have two IPCC claims at the heart of their agenda which have proved unfounded. By the way, now that the climate/catastrophes link is discredited, the Stern Review numbers are entirely wrong, and you can no longer claim that “the costs of inaction exceed the costs of mitigation”, even if you believe the Great Carbon Myth. AGW is dead.
I did not contradict Pielke in any way, he does not say that extreme weather events are not caused by AGW, he said there is ‘insufficient evidence’. These are two very different things.
If Pielke said that there was evidence that contradicted the theory that agw causes extreme weather it would have been an altogether different ball park.
More research and an open mind are needed. In the meantime, we should carry out an appropriate risk assessment.
Philip – who do you think wants to read all of your boring references? You may be obsessively into this subject but it is now boring us to death. Your comment at 10:10 is a case in point. I would think most readers come here to see what Mr Helmer has to say and then a few comments – not something that would appear in the references section of a PHD thesis!
The references were provided to show Roger the wealth of evidence contradicting his argument. Posting them in the forum seems like a good way of arguing this point.
How would you have made it?