True Believers

It’s worth reading Garrison Keillor’s hilarious book “Lake Wobegone Days”, if only for the very perceptive chapter on the small protestant denomination in which he was raised.  I recognise the scenario, as I was raised in a rather similar one.  Such groups are riven with factionalism and schism.  Each faction has some slightly different (but vital) alternative interpretation of Holy Writ, and the divisions become smaller and smaller, even within families, until you have the impression that each adherent is convinced that he is the only true believer, and that all the others are suspect one way or another.

Sadly, the Eurosceptic movement in Britain is rather similar.  Too many eurosceptics spend their time sniping at each other, rather than turning their guns on the real enemy, which in this case is Brussels.

I was alerted by my indomitable press officer Neelam Cartmell to a web-site called Autonomous Mind, which appears to be of the UKIP persuasion, and has a host of contributors eager to attack Conservative Eurosceptics who clearly (in their terms) are not Eurosceptics at all, but part of a great Tory plot to burnish sceptical credentials whilst pursuing an integrationist policy.  Autonomous Mind (AM), by the way, is said to “disdain Nigel Farage” — illustrating my point about factionalism and schism.

AM had published an “Open letter to Roger Helmer MEP”, which had attracted some angry comment.  But at least Mr. AM invited me to respond — so I did.  You may be amused by some of my replies.

Bellvue alleged that Roger Helman (sic) MEP was a cowardly shit.  “I recognise neither the name Roger Helman, nor the appellation “cowardly shit”, so I think you must be engaged in a different conversation”.

Brian H asserted that all politicians were liars: “Unlike George Washington, I would not claim that I’d never told a lie.  But I would say that I have never knowingly dissembled about any political question: indeed if you had followed my career you would know that I am in constant trouble for too much straight talking”.

David Phipps insisted we all knew that repatriation (of powers from Brussels) would never happen:   I certainly don’t “know that repatriation will never happen”.  There is a head of steam building up in the parliamentary party.  It has been commented on by, amongst others, Tim Montgomerie, who has his ear to the ground.  We now have the European Union Act which prescribes a referendum in specific circumstances.  Those circumstances could arise with the proposed new arrangements for a euro-debt-union.  I don’t think Cameron can move at this stage without upsetting the Coalition — and therefore the fiscal recovery plan.  But he could do so before the next election.

Jeremy Poynton asks “Exactly who do you represent?”.    I think you mean “whom”.  I represent about 4.2 million people in the East Midlands, and I have been elected top of the list on three successive occasions — ‘99, ‘04, ‘09.  I think my democratic legitimacy probably exceeds that of most correspondents to AM.

Patrick Harris asks why politicians don’t sue the European Commission for breaches of EU law: I think your answer is that there is no realistic hope that the European Court of Justice would ever hand down a ruling opposed to European integration.  A court action would be a huge waste of time and money.  But of course if you think you have a case — there’s nothing to stop you bringing an action.

Jones “Do you at least agree that commentators on this blog have a point?”:  Indeed.  Many of the commentators have a point.  But I’m not sure that they have a strategy.

Uncle Badger rants: “Antipathy to the EU is rife …. If you are not willing to represent that view….”.  What do you imagine I have been doing for the last twelve years?  I’ve been expressing my antipathy to the EU in blogs, newsletters, Tweets, (@RogerHelmerMEP), web-sites; press releases, books, DVDs; on radio and TV; in the Conservative Party and in the European parliament!  You might check your facts before sounding off.  And you might note my earlier comments: too many Eurosceptics spend their time attacking each other, not attacking Brussels.

AM is said to disdain Nigel Farage: Sorry to hear that you regard Nigel Farage with disdain.  I have a lot of time for him.  A good guy.

John Payne argues that European integration in the Conservative Party is driven by the Whips: Interested by your theory that EU integration is driven by the Whips.  Last time I checked, the Chief Whip was Patrick McLoughlin MP — he’s on my patch and I certainly don’t see him as a fifth column for Brussels.

Finally, they ask, why do some eurosceptics in Westminster occasionally appear to support some integrationist measures?  Is it better to seek to move the Conservative Party in a Eurosceptic direction over time (which implies some compromise with Party policy), or to make one grand kamikaze gesture which rules you out of the action ever after, even though it gains the applause of Autonomous Mind?

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51 Responses to True Believers

  1. Sue says:

    Roger, the main point is we’ve heard it all before. We are past the point of repatriating powers. We don’t believe it anymore. We want out. It’s quite simple.

  2. Pingback: Roger Helmer dismisses criticism and covers for faux Tory Eurosceptics « Autonomous Mind

  3. maureen gannon says:

    Sir you show the true arrogance that we the populace have grown to hate, you do not answer points made but as usual use emotive language to dismiss us as a fringe element,
    I am quite sure there are many politicos who would like to get t as strong a vote as there was for a poll held by You Gov in favour to get out of Europe.
    I never hear from any of you in power that convinces me what if any benefits we get from this fradulent body that the money we give could not be spent better here, in rebuilding this country.

  4. Ross J Warren says:

    Sue, if there really is going to be a withdraw isn’t it time to be offering up the argued alternative. My impression is that this fight isn’t as clear cut as you suggest. The democratic process supports the E.U. far more than you might hope. Roger certainly isn’t the enemy, the road blocks are real and cannot be circumvented by any amount of wishful thinking. Getting ourselves out of this euro-black-hole isn’t going to be an overnight velvet revolution, it is going to be a long hard grind.

    • Sue says:

      Ross, there will never be a right time to be offering a withdraw. Infact, the longer we leave this desperate situation, the less power and money we will have. I know Roger isn’t the enemy, I like Roger.

      All we want is what we are entitled to. To be given a referendum. In or Out.

      Anyone denying the British people that right, does not believe in the democratic process and any politician who advocates denying us that right, should not be in the British Government.

      • Thanks Sue. As I have said many times, I too want an In/Out referendum, and have been a main supporter of the Better Off Out campaign, through the Freedom Association. But I should also welcome a referendum on any other EU issue, if only to demonstrate the strength of feeling out there.

  5. Goodnight Vienna says:

    Mr Helmer, I hope you’re not implying that Eustice & Co are the way forward for the Conservative Party? How many more years would you have us listen to the opinions of focus groups, MEPs and MPs – each saying how much they dislike the EU construct, how it is anti-democratic, how it has undermined our national sovereignty? They seem to think that’s enough and it will keep people happy for a while. Well, it isn’t and it won’t.

  6. The trouble is, Helmer, there is no such thing as a Tory Eurosceptic … merely Judas goats to lead the gullible into more integration.

    • Sorry, Richard, but there is indeed such a thing as a Tory eurosceptic. Me, for example.

      • A contradiction in terms … which makes you the classic Judas goat, leading the gullible into the Tory fold. You go all the way with the sheep behind you … only to peel away at the last minute.

      • Greg_L-W. says:

        Hi,

        do you honestly believe your rhetoric and sales puff Helmer?

        Richard is right.

        Please tell us all of your actual achievements to extract these United Kingdoms from the malign grasp of The EU as a vassal region.

        Minded of just how much in bribes and expenses you have achieved you do talk some total self serving venal twaddle!

        But then again The Judas Goat is worth a great deal to the slaughter house.

        Regards,
        Greg_L-W.

  7. I have to say that your comments Roger reaffirm my belief that should the UK exit the EU it will be no thanks to the Tory Party.

    I’ve fought our membership for over 25 years, and I’ve heard the same old tired words year in year out – “that the Tory party is eurosceptic, that voting Tory will help more eurosceptic MPs into Westminister etc etc”. All of it has proven to be completely untrue of course.

    The Tories have been the most europhile party in history; they took us in on a lie (supported by Thatcher) passed the Single European Act, shadowed the ERM which led to the 90s recession, joined the ERM, passed the Maastricht, gave away our armed forces in the mid 90s to the EU and so on.

    In my experience, when we get a Tory Government EU integration gets faster and goes further – a point you acknowledged yourself Roger:

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2011/06/by-rogerhelmermep-eu-assurances-overturned-in-weeks.html

    Put simply the Tory party wants more EU – its actions prove this time and time again whatever their weasel words try to suggest otherwise. A vote for the Tories is a vote for more EU integration. And I want no part of it.

  8. Derek says:

    The main point that Roger makes is actually spot on. We eurosceptics are a divide bunch, rather like those in the Life Of Brian – The Judean Front and the Front of Judea. If only a miracle would occur and we could be brought together into one strong organisation. Today we have several different petitions for a referendum on “In Or Out”. UKIP in particular is famous for the splits which have dogged it more or less from its inception. If all sceptics joined their local Conservative Party, they could have real influence. There are only two parties that can get us out of the EU, and of the two, I still think the Conservatives are the more likely.

    • I think our main problem is that the term “eurosceptic” has no precise definition, although I have always taken it to mean someone who wants to leave the EU. As such, we have a situation where many people who call themselves eurosceptics are not … and have a different agenda.

      If, however, the essential definition requires a determination to leave the EU, then membership of the Conservative Party is incompatible with being a eurosceptic.

      Further, it is not wise to assume that withdrawal will be achieved through or by a political party. Most fundamental changes are driven by movements, outside the party political machinery, with the political parties reacting to outside pressure rather than initiating the changes.

      As such, it is important that eurosceptics should not compromise by being members of any parties which, quite clearly, do not share their values.

      • maureen gannon says:

        As someone who objects to being called Eurosceptic. I always feel the need to add tank to the word, and apply it the the fraudelent body that is in Europe that subversivly rule us while pretending that the European regional government in Westminster is our governing body, I am not a sceptic tank as the word implies and not anti Europe I visit and enjoy often, the countries that are Europe, I am ANTI being ruled by an undemocratic fraudelent body which has aims to nuture this country and become a federal state called the U.S.S.E .

      • maureen gannon says:

        I object to being called a Eurosceptic I always have the urge to add tank to the word and apply it to the fraudalent body in Brussels, I am not a sceptic tank, I am ANTI U.S.S.R
        which is where that body wish to take us , with their Transaction tax European Maritime policy, the destruction of Royal Mail http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/post/index_en.htm
        .none of this is ever reported in our media nor our government announcing the true reasons for what they do.
        I just want out, Iceland has done it her own way has now a robust economy, so please don’t anyone tell me this country cannot stand on her own feet.

      • maureen gannon says:

        Freudian slip . my post should read U.S.S.E. sorry about that

    • If all “eurosceptics” (a fatuous term, as Richard North points out) joined the Monster Raving Looney Party, it would probably have an overall majority in Westminster at the next election.

      More than 50% of the population are in favour of leaving the EU.

      Joining an uninfluential level of a party with a record of deceit (vide “Cast Iron Promises”) would be a delusional course of action.

      Tory Party delenda est

    • The problem Derek is the people trying to create a supposedly strong organisation are the likes of Heaton-Harris, who has voted in favour of integrationist Bills in the House.

      The main point is that we have people who have chuntered away for years, telling us theirs is the way forward, yet achieving nothing. Then we see them voting in faviour of the very things they tell the electorate they are against.

      The Conservative Party is not democratic. Once elected there is no way to influence or direct its leader. He walks a pro-EU path as PM and the country sinks further into closer union.

      Those in the Conservative Party with the real power do not want us to leave the EU. They allow some dissent, such as that from Roger, but nothing that goes too far for them – such as holding Cameron to account and forcing him out so the members can elect someone else. Not that it would make any difference.

      The power brokers hold sway no matter what the members want or think, which is why so many have turned away from the party and left politics. The party, like the country, exists in a feudal system where a clique call the shots and the rest are ignored on the sidelines.

  9. maureen gannon says:

    Why should we have had to think about forming a party, I was niave, [along with many others] enough to believe Mr Chamelon, that we would be given a vote on any likely- hood of more sovereignty being lost, and yet we are not being given one on the transaction tax ,or the fact that the fraudelent body that rules us from Brussels wants an Integrated maritime policy, that England is being regionalised at the behest of europe via the ‘We are all in it together localism bill,
    any of those should give us the promised referendum I admit to being duped , the man is slick of tongue much like the snake oil sellers in the wild west . well he won’t suck me in again and there are many like me .

  10. Greg_L-W. says:

    Hi,

    the true looters are the very politicians who draw their huge bribes (the pretend it is a salary for work when they do none of consequence!), fiddle their expenses, defend their drinking chums when caught.

    Look at the serried ranks of bloated over paid Local Government parasites, QUANGO chiefs and Government advisers (brothers in law etc.) and meeeja consultants.

    These are the true looters OUR-ENEMY-WITHIN whilst yet more serried ranks of Judges, politicians, vicars, teachers, BBC staff, social service workers and the like who when convicted AND FOUND GUILTY of child abuse walk free!

    Is the abuse of children nothing more than a perk of Government employment?

    Even the likes of Roger Helmer might care to tell us all what actual achievements he has to his name as a Politician, in return for the many £Millions he has accepted as funding/bribes from the scam.

    Regards,
    Greg_L-W.

  11. Greg_L-W. says:

    Hi,

    this is of course the chap who defended Tom Wise and his criminality, publicly attacking me for my temerity in exposing the fraud and embezzling by his drinking chum. Just as did UKIP leadership in ever more dishonest terms – Nigel Farage even lied on TV to protect Tom Wise and himself.

    Where does Patriotism enter into such self interest?

    Some may remember when drinking in a pub in Belgium, with a young girl from The NoTW, that Roger Helmer was filmed seeking ways to have his home relocated in mapping terms so that he could claim even more expenses.

    This may be the practice within the many globalist corporations for whom he worked prior to moving to politics!

    He even admits to 3 terms as an MEP when we have seen not one inch of movement to the exit, but a great deal of self enrichment by the likes of Roger Helmer seemingly with his chums Farage, Tom Wise, Daniel Hannan – all too willing to act as The Judas Goat.

    It is hard to differentiate between the levels of betrayal of the huge majority of our MPs and that of almost all of our MEPs and minded of how little they have achieved it is clearly a grossly overpaid job with absolutely no ethics and less integrity required.

    Sad that so many lives have been given in defence of our liberty and a huge amount of faith has been placed in our MPs and MEPs who almost to a man seem to have betrayed these United Kingdoms.

    The great tragedy is the huge amount of lives this will cost in the wars of disassociation that are increasingly inevitable because of OUR-ENEMY-WITHIN

    Regards,
    Greg_L-W.

  12. maureen gannon says:

    Sorry Roger , Yes you do win but then you must admit there are more who do not vote than do, and winning a seat can often mean the area is traditional to a certain party,

    I now feel disenfranchised and dissalusioned, I will still go to the voting booth as I know women died for me to do so, and not to be given the label apathetic which I am not, but it will be a spoilt paper untill politico’s learn not just to listen but to hear. what we are saying.

  13. Greg_L-W. says:

    Hi,

    Ms. Gannon is right but also overlooks the skills of The Judas Goat who can dupe the sheep to lead them into the slaughter house.

    The goat is well rewarded for betraying the sheep.

    We need only look at the proliferation of petitions to see how the Judas Goats will act to seek to undermine the efficacy of a petition on behalf of their real masters viz. Dan Hannan.Mark Glendenning’s copy cat petition when they couldn’t run the original one.

    UKIP’s petition out of spite when Nikki Sinclaire’s was having such success.

    UKIP launches petitions but has NEVER delivered save it seems money into the accounts of the few!

    Now we have a Tory spoiler for the Tory BOO campaign!

    The Tories like Labour will tell ANY lie to stay in place they even surrendered power to our competitors/enemies The EEC in return for the pretence of retaining power/income!

    Westminster is nothing more than an EU QUANGO.

    Like the directors of QUANGOs overpaid as part of the Kleptocracy and of no meaningful value.

    The sickening lies of the politicians and their parasites in the pretence they work for us! What unmitigated balderdash!

    But The Judas Goat is well rewarded as OUR-ENEMY-WITHIN

    Regards,
    Greg_L-W.

  14. rapscallion says:

    Despite all your protestations Roger, you have to basically admit that AM is right. You and your fellow ‘europsceptic MEP’s or MP’s have actually achieved NOTHING as far as getting this country out of Europe. Some of your ‘eurosceptic’ colleagues have actually voted FOR further integration with the EU – I mean, just how ‘eurosceptic’ is that.

    Actions speak louder than words Roger.
    Your actions and those of your colleagues tell me everything I need to know.

    • My actions consist of a dozen years of my life spent largely campaigning against British membership of the EU. Do you have a problem with that?

      • In truth, you are not and never have been campaigning against British membership of the EU … just membership of the EU in the form it currently takes. You would be perfectly happy with a “reformed” EU, which means there is not a fag paper between you and Cameron.

        However, since the “reform” on which you set out your stall is never going to happen, you have a comfortable sinecure which will keep you happily occupied for the rest of your natural, without actually achieving anything. Your main activity, therefore, is to act as a recruiting sergeant for the Tory Party ,,, which is why you are tolerated.

  15. Alfred says:

    Your analogy is a good one. It appears that there are many splits and factions in Christendom, but in reality there is only one, which has been fought over since the 1st century. Finally it was clarified in the Reformation period when we were left with one split. Those who accepted the authority of scripture and those who nibbled around the edges of it. Many denominations have differences of opinion over unimportant matters, but come under the one umbrella of those who accept the authority of scripture. That is the real split.

    So with the EU. There are many factions, as you highlight, but in reality there is only one split. Those who think the EU can be reformed from within and those who have looked at the lessons of history and realise that it is not reformable, as far as its basic tenets are concerned. The split is, in reality, between those that want out (Withdrawalists?) and those that want to work within the EU for change (Europhiles).

    I admire much of your work, but feel that you have misunderstood this basic problem. I have heard broken promise after broken promise from the Conservative Party, since their election, to the point where I find the Party almost totally untrustworthy. I’m sure I don’t need to list them here.

    You say “Many of the commentators have a point.  But I’m not sure that they have a strategy.” That seems to be sadly true but that does not mean that trying to reform the EU from within is not total folly. I don’t find the UKIP Strategy very sensible at the moment, but it is far far better than that of the Conservative Party. The EU will collapse one day as all totalitarian regimes do, so the sooner we are out of it the better.

    and ” Is it better to seek to move the Conservative Party in a Eurosceptic direction over time (which implies some compromise with Party policy), or to make one grand kamikaze gesture which rules you out of the action ever after, even though it gains the applause of Autonomous Mind?” Anyone who has studied the history of the EU since 1918, and much of its history is based on between the wars thinking, knows that there is no “Eurosceptic direction”. The choice is IN or OUT, Withdrawlist or Europhile. There is no middle ground.

    These points are well worth arguing and discussing. It is just a shame that some resort to personal attacks. That is not necessary.

  16. harry Beckhough says:

    Since 1972 OUT NOW, Total Exit without equivocation, no ands, ifs or buts

    • Greg_L-W. says:

      Hi,

      how very right Harry – there is no middle way, there is no acceptable reform.

      The EU is an obscenity, unlawful, morally repugnant and sadly having sold out to participation our politicians sell out their conciences with cowardly phrases like ‘don’t frighten the horses’ and ‘softly softly catche monkey’ and other gutless irresponsibility.

      OUR-ENEMY-WITHIN have betrayed us and will do anything to cover their tracks.

      Every hour we remain a party to this squalid construct is a moral cost and an additional day of struggle to reinstate our liberty and any meaningful concept of democracy.

      Politicians make much of their legitimacy – yet governments come to power with 22% of the vote.

      MPs have almost zero legitimacy MEPs have none – they are professional liars giving legitimacy to corruption in reward for the bribes.

      They are The JUDAS GOAT.

      They are the LOOTERS stealing from the public in return for their own self serving self important puffed up self importance and self enrichment.

      Regards,
      Greg_L-W.

      • maureen gannon says:

        Greg, It saddens me to have to agree with you,but I do and would add as I watched them pontificating on and in the media about the rioters and broken Britain I felt like flight testing the TV across the room.
        We had people who have been proven guilty talking in a condecending way of “These people” [the looters],
        I watched the Murdoch debacle unfold with Tom Watson playing the highly moral act, when all I could think of was this man claimed “But I was within the rules maximum £4,800 allowance for food in a single year. From 2005-2009, Watson and Iain Wright claimed over £100,000 on the apartment they share. and my thoughts left the debate and could only think , this is crooks judging crooks.
        The Books for Europe have not been audited for years if that was a business the fraud squad would be there looking at the books, as I see it all those living the high life in that body are guilty for allowing this to happen let’s face it Kinnock was paid to sort it out haha he has ended up a Lord on £400 a day attendance money and a millionaire . the books still unaudited and still corrupt.

  17. Greg_L-W. says:

    Hi,

    here is an interesting message regarding the You Gov Poll commissioned by The Independent MEP Nikki Sinclaire whilst the rest of the MEPs were on holiday and as she presented her Petition for an In/Out EU Referendum having obtained over 100,000 signatures.

    Signatures obtained despite the fact of the many Judas Goats urinating on the bushes to try to mark out a territory and save themselves the embarrassment of being shown for indolent self serving, smug, arrogant parasites gorging themselves at the expense of their country with their paid newspaper columns, funded lecture tours and other scams for self enrichment.

    I gather the You Gov Poll has been sent to every single Tory MEP who are quite clearly self serving arrogant fools.

    NOT ONE was democratically elected they were merely the only choice offered in a corrupt list system.

    The message I gave to all Tory MEPs
    Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:40:41 +0200
    From: nikki.sinclaire@europarl.europa.eu
    To: charles.tannock@europarl.europa.eu; syed.kamall@europarl.europa.eu; marina.yannakoudakis@europarl.europa.eu; martin.callanan@europarl.europa.eu; robert.atkins@europarl.europa.eu; sajjad.karim@europarl.europa.eu; jacqueline.foster@europarl.europa.eu; timothy.kirkhope@europarl.europa.eu; roger.helmer@europarl.europa.eu; emma.mcclarkin@europarl.europa.eu; philip.bradbourn@europarl.europa.eu; malcolm.harbour@europarl.europa.eu; geoffrey.vanorden@europarl.europa.eu; robert.sturdy@europarl.europa.eu; vicky.ford@europarl.europa.eu; david.campbellbannerman@europarl.europa.eu; daniel.hannan@europarl.europa.eu; richardjames.ashworth@europarl.europa.eu; nirj.deva@europarl.europa.eu; james.elles@europarl.europa.eu; giles.chichester@europarl.europa.eu; julie.girling@europarl.europa.eu; ashley.fox@europarl.europa.eu; kay.swinburne@europarl.europa.eu; struan.stevenson@europarl.europa.eu; james.nicholson@europarl.europa.eu

    Dear Colleagues,

    I trust you had a good summer break.

    You may have missed a YouGov poll that I commissioned a few weeks ago that showed for the first time a clear majority of the UK population (52%) wish to leave the EU with only 30% who would vote to stay in.

    The question was independently set by YouGov. Please find attached the YouGov report.

    As you embark on your parliamentary work you might wish to consider:
    The breakdown from Conservative voters.
    74% want a referendum
    and
    66% would vote to leave the EU
    .

    Regards
    Nikki Sinclaire MEP

    I trust this is of help to readers in the couse of identifying The Judas Goats that betray us in The Tory Party – OUR-ENEMY-WITHIN.

    We still await the exact details of achievement towards LEAVING The EU that Roger Helmer claims for all his huff and puff and arrogant, smug self satisfaction.

    EXACTLY what has YOUR Total failure cost the tax payers in bribes/salary and expenses for we seem no closer to the exit than when you first opened your EUI accounts and having failed to deliver honestly or competently started to stuff your accounts obtained under false pretences just like your chums elected to Leave-The-EU and minded 66% of ALL Tory voters wish to Leave-The-EU.

    It does seem Helmer that you are just another oleaginous and duplicitous Judas Goat.

    Indeed as YOU stated:
    >>”Seems I just can’t win — except in elections.”<<

    May I remind you Helmer YOU did not win an election – Your Party did, you are just a cypher.

    Do also be minded that 66% of those votes wish to Leave-The-EU in what way would you claim your party/vehicle has acquitted its duty to the electorate?

    Is it any wonder that the society has little but contempt for those looters like yourself and other parasitic fat cats drawing down huge amounts of money in return for their abject failure and thus betrayal.

    Regards,
    Greg_L-W.

  18. I vow to thee my Country says:

    To Greg_L_W

    Having read your responses to various people on this blog I see that you believe that the UK should withdraw from the EU. I also note that you believe Mr Helmer, all the Conservative, UKIP, Labour and other MEPs are “Judas Goats” who believe in remaining in the EU and taking it money and con the British electorate. There appears to be, in your view, only one MEP, Nikki Sinclair, who is not in that category ( and hence a true honest etc Withdrawalist). Is this a fair assessment of your view?

  19. Greg_L-W. says:

    Hi,

    You will note Helmer says:
    >>Finally, they ask, why do some eurosceptics in Westminster occasionally appear to support some integrationist measures? Is it better to seek to move the Conservative Party in a Eurosceptic direction over time (which implies some compromise with Party policy), or to make one grand kamikaze gesture which rules you out of the action ever after, even though it gains the applause of Autonomous Mind?<>My actions consist of a dozen years of my life spent largely campaigning against British membership of the EU. Do you have a problem with that?<<

    YEP – may I quote Einstein who said 'To keep repeating the same experiment over and over again and expect a different result is a sign of madness'.

    A measure of just how much of a spectacular failure you have been is the irrefutable fact that you can lay claim not one single material achievement in a dozen years that has moved us closer to leaving.

    Furthermore it is clear from AM's, richard North and your own blog that you have totally failed to convince your own side that you are anything other than a self serving Judas Goat along with Nigel Farage, dan Hannan, Carswell, Eustace and the rest of the parasites feeding from the political troughs – The true Looters in our society!

    OUR-ENEMY-WITHIN

    Are we to congratulate you all on making a great deal from the public purse yet achieving the sum total of diddly squat!

    Is it any wonder politicians are held in such contempt?

    Regards,
    Greg_L-W.

    • Is that the Greg Lance Watkins I used to know? The one whose speciality is wholly destructive and negative abuse, who has no positive contribution to make on any issue?

      • By which rhetorical device does Helmer avoid answering or dealing with any of the points raised … typical politician’s trick. Just keep repeating the mantra, Helmer … as long as you believe it, everything is right in the world … your world.

      • Greg_L-W. says:

        Hi,

        how embarrassing for you and there is even a picture of you.

        Your only defence of your behaviour is to attack a voter!

        You have over the last 12 years trousered several £Million to act to Leave-The-EU and you have as proven achieved the sum total of nothing in return for your money.

        I on the other hand have raised the issue in many areas and deliberately sought to undermine the corruption of politicians like yourself, and have at every opportunity denounced membership of The EU and done all I possibly can to Leave-The-EU and I have not received one penny piece from the public purse for acquitting my duty as I see it.

        Now we have a self serving old fraud who has made what to almost all of his electorate is a fortune out of the achievement of absolutely nothing that can be shown to have moved us one inch closer to Leave-The-EU.

        If Helmer you lack the integrity to apologise there will be many more who will view you as an outrageous self serving fraud.

        Serving an utterly fraudulent system and fraudulently upholding a fraudulent political party – presumably for your continued self enrichment and arrogant puffed up pomposity.

        Shame on you.

        Regards,
        Greg_L-W.

    • I vow to thee my Country says:

      Greg

      and the answer to my question is?

      • Greg_L-W. says:

        Hi,

        MEA CULPA
        Sorry I missed your question.

        The simple answer to your question is NO.

        You are wrong, in that I do not believe ALL Tories etc. to be Plastic EUroSceptics nor Judas Goats.

        Many are openly declared in their betrayal of these United Kingdoms, our people, our Constitution, our values, our justice system and our future.

        Thus clearly they are incapable of fulfilling the role of Judas Goats.

        EUroScepticism that has so little understanding as to genuinely seek to fob of the public with the sham belief that the EU can be constructively changed have clearly not read the treaties nor considered the undemocratic nature of the top down committee led dictatorship.

        Those that have and still continue with this pretence merely add credibility to the dishonest scam.

        I hope this clearly answers your question.

        I do look forward to clear answers to the questions Roger Helmer has been asked and clarification of how he is able to refute the claim he is a Plastic EUrosceptic who has been highly paid and has delivered absolutely no visible achievement and in supporting the concept of ‘reform’ within The EU is thus acting as a Judas Goat.

        That his ONLY attempt at answering the questions put to him has been to dishonourably obfuscate and attack a voter in fact gives great credence to my assertions.

        I do however expect him to be able to round up his many chums and parasites feeding off his EU generated income to be able to tell us all what a wonderfull little chappy he is and how heinous I am.

        That is no answer nor justification for his behaviour and merely becomes more convincing.

        If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to ask them.

        Regards,
        Greg_L-W.
        01291 – 62 65 62

  20. Eastmids says:

    Having known Roger for over a decade, it is laughable to suggest that he is anything other than a dedicated, committed and real-deal Euroskeptic. He may not be more Catholic than the Pope, but he’s done a fine job in Brussels for over a decade now. He’s a thorn in the side of the Eurocrats and a major irritant to the jerk-circle of Europhile MEPs who sit in the Brussels chamber. Those folks who genuinely believe that we’re better off out (including me) should use their energies attacking the real targets….there’s enough of them

    • Greg_L-W. says:

      Hi,

      congratulations on attacking the real targets but since you hide your identity no doubt you will forgive us all for not noticing.

      You will however note that Roger Helmer is merely, as you put it, a thorn in the side of, frankly for the huge amount of money he has garnered over 12years is the thorn an adequate response.

      Particularly a plastic thorn that lends credence to the Tory Party which has absolutely no interest in Leaving The EU despite 66% of its own voters wishing to leave.

      For the many £Millions invested in these Plastic EUrosceptics approved by the whips one would expect by now that we would have material progress towards leaving the EU.

      In a business world they would have been fired years ago but since this is neither a business world nor a democracy as it functions on protective lists and the dishonest PR system they are likely to be able to remain and play the role of Judas Goats to protect the party and its ambitions to keep its snout in the trough.

      Attacking The EU is of course utterly pointlesss as it is structured to ensure it is impervious – far more effective to attack OUR-ENEMY-WITHIN – our own politicians, civil servants and their parasites who are betraying these United Kingdoms.

      Regards,
      Greg_L-W.

  21. Richard Saumarez says:

    Dear Mr Helmer,

    I notice that “goat” has been mentioned with reference to you by several posters. At least, nobody has called you an “old goat”! (Be thankful for small mercies).

    I do not think that you are a faux eurosceptic. Rather you have swum against the tide for a number of years and the tide is beginning to turn, not only in the UK but throughout the EU.

    The real problem is can we make a credible alternative to the EU that will gain political traction? Leaving the EU tomorrow is a policy similar to solving the energy crisis by inventing a simple, cheap method of turning water into petrol.

    How can we disengage from the EU? I find the idea of a two speed EU being supported by George Osborne very significant. Since we are not, and unlikely to become, members of the Eurozone, a process of gradual disengagement is a practical policy – never let a good crisis go to waste. Naturally, we must be seen to fully support the EU as a whole in its moment of crisis, but as members of the slow lane we should gently disengage.

    • Greg_L-W. says:

      Hi,

      please permit me the temerity to correct you.

      In the reading of this entire thread, nowhere have I seen anyone call Roger Helmer a “goat” be it young or old.

      Regards,
      Greg_L-W.

  22. phil mill says:

    The substantial fact is that we, the voters, have been given no plebiscite on an EU government. And yet piecemeal our government is being handed over to Brussels.

    When will you politicians understand that British sovereignty was never yours to give away? Cameron even acknowledged this implicitly when he promised a referendum on the EU Constitution. But such a pledge is worthless if the same document can be kept in substance but simply given a new name.

    So you can have a “mass debate” about the finer points of religion and semantics. But after decades of deceit, perhaps you will forgive the rest of us for attaching more weight to substance and to your actions (i.e. how you actually vote) than to your words.

    • Greg_L-W. says:

      Hi,

      how right you are.

      It seems that to the question ‘when is a lie not a lie’ it would seem the answer is when it is an untruth told by some liar we fund as a politician!

      They even have their own Aesopian word for their dishonesty ‘dissembling’ why when everyone understands it to be a lie?

      We currently have a Conservative Government, parasites not withstanding, having resoundingly dumped the crass incompetence and lies of Labour and much of the vote garnered was on the ‘Cast Iron Promise’ by the David Cameron and endorsed by his followers.

      The man reneged and even draw succour from Plastic EUrosceptics acting as Judas Goats to lead the sheeple to the slaughter.

      Regards,
      Greg_L-W.

  23. maureen gannon says:

    Eastmids. In reply to your message concerning Mr Helmer’s sincerity about europe and the fact he may be a thorn in their sides but none of this is reflected in the actions in what is derisably called the British government , so if Mr Helmar cannot answer the question he has been asked many times, perhaps you can answer, is there one thorn that he has used, that has stopped the EU from gaining more power that once belonged to us the people, because every piece of sovereignty that is given away without our consent is stolen from us the people,
    For instance what thorns will be used to stop our royal post being taken over by either the Dutch or the Germans, what thorn will prevent the EUSSR inflicting their Maritime policy on us,and most importantly what thorn will be used to stop the Transaction Tax? I do hope you can answer me as not one politico has ever given an answer just their normal politic mumbo jumbo.

    • maureen gannon says:

      http://4liberty.org.uk/2011/09/02/the-european-financial-stabilisation-mechanism/

      In addition to the thorny questions I have asked can either you or Mr Helmer read the following article and justify being a part in this corruption , its time for the supposed sceptics in Westminster and Brussels to reveal this diabolical affront to the media and demand with one voice the promised referendum we would have no need for a coalition then your party would sweep into Parliament and the rebuilding of the once proud country could begin to regain its identity and the broken society would be no more..

      • maureen gannon says:

        I have just received a mail containing an EU document asking its citizens what can be done to make us all feel European, {another compartment added to the gravy train.}

        Firstly Mr Helmer I am a subject to the Sovereign of GB not a citizen to a bunch of marxists in Brussels, it truly reads like something Marx or Stalin would have devised ,even Josephine and he “Let them eat cake” came to mind with us the phlebs being thrown crumbs from the gravy train windows.
        Below is just a fraction of the missive received I am sure people will find the full document on the internet if they want to see this document that is aimed at the youth, {didn’t Hitler try that }

        Council of European Municipalities and Regions

        Secretariat General

        15 rue de Richelieu

        F-75001 Paris

        Click on the appropriate title to view consultation content.

        Introduction

        Tomorrow’s European Citizenship

        Arising from a desire to have lasting peace, the idea of a unified Europe took shape in the period after World War II. Sixty years after the launching of the Community project, what has become of the hopes engendered by this Europe? Faced with social crises and the retreat caused by fears raised as a result of globalisation, what kind of responses can Europe bring to the table?

        Bringing Europe closer to its citizens, promoting an active European citizenship and reinforcing a sense of belonging to Europe underlie the core concerns of the European Institutions which must face up to a serious crisis of confidence on the part of its citizens.

        The concept of European citizenship is complex and difficult to define as it encompasses a number of meanings and can be subject to many interpretations.

        Town twinning was a founding instrument of European citizenship, which has been slowly forged through intercultural meetings, exchanges and partnerships. What is its status today?

        Questions:

        What are the main elements of modern citizenship in Europe? What are the reasons which lead you to feel that you are a European citizen?
        What are the main obstacles to having a feeling of European citizenship? Why do you not feel that you are a European citizen?
        As the level of government closest to citizens, what kind of contribution can local and regional authorities make towards exercising active European citizenship? What role can partnerships and twinning play in this?
        Is the “Europe for Citizens” programme suitably adapted to this conception? If not, what would you propose?
        How can exchange networks, city networks and European associations best respond to the expectations of today’s European citizens and youth in particular?

      • Greg_L-W. says:

        Hi,

        I too had details of this and wrote for details to the 20 or so eMails quoted on the web site TWICE – they did not have the courtesy to reply (So very EUropean).

        I have now written to my UKIP MEP John Bufton twice and he is either too stupid or too lazy to reply as sadly is my MP David Davies who has also failed to address the questions.

        I am starting to feel like a EUropean citizen as just like them in every vote I am ignored!

        Clearly there is no intent or even pretence to answer and present any vestage of democracy – It would seem that Roger Helmer is a true EU citizen because he too shelters in arrogant hubris drawing a huge income for achieving not one thing of consequence to Leave-The-EU in 12+ years that he can identify.

        We are all increasingly EU citizens and thus like any centralised committee dictatorship increasingly ignored – Oh so very Soviet as Vladimir Bukovsky (sp) pointed out “I have seen your future” that after many years in the Gullags of that other enforced arcane, centralised, undemocratic and failed experiment in a Post Democratic Society led by their Judas Goats and their Plastic Dissidents even as it collapsed in ruin like the EU with many of the apparatchiks amassing fortunes as oligarchs as have Blair, Mandelson, Barosso, Chirac and to a lesser extent Hannan, Farage, Helmer and their ilk.

        You will know you are truly an EU citizen when you have to queue for food and other essentials and the state forces ID on you.

        You will be certain when your currency is worthless and your ration card won’t gain you entry to the vat free EU equivalent of GUM stores.

        Any dissident countries that do not instantly acquiesce will, like Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. be bombed and others will face regime change to suit the dictator committe and its unelected bureaucrats – its von Rumpeys, Ashtons, and the like.

        Each country will have its castratti choir and gaulleiters and increasingly as hunger bites ever deeper and saps your will you will know that The EU is increasingly succeeding!

        Fear not The Judas Goats will be well fed and rewarded for their betrayal, until they are no longer needed – remember Beria?.

        Regards,
        Greg_L-W.

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