Read-across from Scottish to UK Independence? No!

Cameron-Salmond

It was bound to come, and we’re hearing it already.  We need to be prepared.  On BBC Radio 4 News’ Westminster Hour with Carolyn Quinn, on Feb 23rd, they had a Lib-Dem Baroness, Olly Grender who said that David Cameron faced a growing problem – how can he argue that the union of Scotland with the rest of Britain is a good thing, and indeed vital all round – but that union of the UK with the EU has serious problems and needs renegotiation?  (Bear in mind that I have no faith at all in Cameron’s renegotiation promise – but it’s what Cameron is talking about).

I’m not rushing to support Cameron, but I agree that the Union of the UK is a good thing, whilst our membership of the EU is a bad thing – and I see no inconsistency at all in that position.

In the UK, we have perhaps the most successful currency union in history, between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.  And in the EU, they have an on-going disaster of a currency union, which has created conditions akin to the Great Depression over large parts of Southern Europe, with youth unemployment up around 60%, trashing a whole generation.

The UK currency union depends on fund transfers from London to Scotland (and the failure of the €uro is partly caused by the political impossibility of such fund transfers in the eurozone), but as Nigel Farage has said on Television, there is a broad political consensus in England that the Barnett Formula is a price worth paying, despite the occasional carping.  Alex Salmond’s counter argument (that Scotland is a net contributor because of “Scottish” oil & gas) is merely muddying the water, and fails to make a case.  There is no such consensus in Europe, which is why the €uro problem has no solution.

In political terms, there were Scottish members in Westminster as early as 1654, while Scotland has been continuously represented in Westminster since 1707. We have repeatedly seen Scottish senior ministers and indeed Prime Ministers (thank you Gordon Brown).  Nothing that exists in Europe compares to that, and the European parliament is a fraudulent device designed to give a facade of democratic accountability and legitimacy where none exists.

I love to use my favourite quotes from Enoch Powell and John Stuart Mill, and I apologise to regular readers for the repetition, but they are hugely relevant in this case.  Mill said “Where peoples lack fellow feeling, and especially where they read and speak different languages, the common public opinion necessary for representative government cannot exist”.  And Powell said that democrat legitimacy could be achieved “where people have enough in common, in terms of history, culture, language and economic interests, that they are prepared to accept governance at each other’s hands”.

How do those very clear criteria apply in this contrast between the UK with the EU?  Let’s get all the bad jokes out of the way about the incomprehensibility of Sauchiehall Street Glaswegian.  The fact is that English is spoken across the UK, and that broadly speaking we can all understand each other.  We can all watch the same TV channels and news programmes.  We can all read the same papers.  The common public opinion necessary for representative government clearly exists in the UK, and clearly does not exist in the EU.  This is not to say, of course, that we all agree with each other, but we are at least starting from a broadly common base of understanding and information.

We have considerable shared economic interests – in the case of Scotland, an interest in keeping its financial services business which would undoubtedly migrate to London from an independent Scotland.  Readers will recall the dire threats that the British financial services industry would migrate to Frankfurt if we failed to join the €uro, but they proved to be wide of the mark – as are the threats that the same will happen when we leave the EU.  In fact the industry will weep tears of joy to be outside the EU’s damaging regulatory framework.

On language and economic interests the case is clear-cut.  On history and culture, it is more a matter of opinion, and no one would deny that there are strong linguistic and cultural links between Britain and Europe.  But I would argue that history and culture between Scotland and England are intertwined to a far greater degree than our cross-channel links, with Scots involved over centuries in all levels of British industry, society and culture.  And despite the increasingly strident – and indeed downright nasty – rhetoric of come Scottish nationalists, there is in my judgement a considerable affection for our centuries-long union on both sides of the Tweed.  The English generally feel much warmer about the Scots than they do about (say) the Slovenians.  Or the Serbians who’s queuing up for EU accession.

So yes: Pro-Union in the UK.  Against membership of the EU.  And perfectly consistent on both counts.

But maybe a read-across to the Ukraine?  Re-stating those two quotes above, I could not help thinking of the current situation in the Ukraine.  There you have two highly polarised groups who certainly seem to lack fellow feeling.  They share a history, but seem to have a totally disparate view of that history, as they do of their economic interests.  And critically, they “speak and read different languages”.  If  you accept John Stuart Mill’s dictum, then there is no “demos” in Ukraine on which to base a legitimate democracy.  One or other side will win any election by a small margin, and the losing side will be aggrieved and alienated, subjected to a government and a policy which they find odious and unacceptable.

The good and the great – in Europe and in Russia – are insisting that the integrity of Ukraine as a unitary state must be sustained at all costs.  I have to ask whether democracy would be better served by a division, like that between Slovakia and the Czech Republic, or between Malaysia and Singapore.

 

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50 Responses to Read-across from Scottish to UK Independence? No!

  1. Paul says:

    Roger, this is weird. I was expecting something about the floods. You gave us all the impression that you would highlight the issue of EU directives and the direct effect they had on the floods we had over the past few weeks. Instead we get this puff piece about Scottish independence.
    What’s going on? I don’t understand it.
    Are you hiding something or are you, just like you say on your twitter account to someone you engaged in conversation with, just a bit thick?
    I reckon you’re just a bit thick.

    • I reckon Roger is a bit bright and you are the thickie, and I should know, I work with him.

    • Roger Helmer MEP says:

      Considering I devoted by Torquay conference speech to the EU directives issue, I don’t think you can say I’m ignoring it. You want me to re-publish Christopher Booker’s article? I certainly can’t better it.

  2. Eric Worrall says:

    I suggest the Barnett Formula has done terrible damage to Scotland, by discouraging the development of economic rationality, leading to Salmond being able to make the case for an independent Scotland without bothering with such trivia as how he would keep Scotland’s finances afloat. For an idea of how damaging well meaning subsidies can be, consider the following piece by a famous African economist:-

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/spiegel-interview-with-african-economics-expert-for-god-s-sake-please-stop-the-aid-a-363663.html

    So in a real sense, an independent Scotland might be the best thing which could ever happen for the Scots. Not in the short term – for a period there would be severe dislocation, as many of the public sector make work jobs disappeared – but in the long term, as Scotland made her own destiny, free from the well meaning interference of the UK.

    For another example of just how damaging Whitehall can be to the regions, consider the case of Hong Kong. Cowperthwaite (a Scott), the famous HK finance minister who created the Asian Miracle, spent much of his career resisting Whitehall’s attempts to “improve” matters, he even refused to collect economy statistics, on the grounds that such statistics only encouraged bureaucrats to fiddle and cause damage. As a result of his efforts, Cowperthwaite achieved for Hong Kong what no Scott could achieve at home – the creation of one of the great financial powerhouses of the world.

    http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-man-behind-the-hong-kong-miracle#axzz2uqrUdS9b

    There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland could find its feet in as dramatic a fashion as Hong Kong – in fact, given Scotland’s history of hard red socialism, the transition might well be unimaginably painful. But somewhere in Scotland is lurking the worldview which produced Cowperthwaite, just waiting to be free. And one more miracle is surely not too much to ask?

  3. Interesting – but the real, concrete reason that Ukraine must and WILL be treated by Russia as a WHOLE – and not a split east-west Ukraine – is simple energy and cash trade business – the gas pipelines. Gazprom is about 10% of the Russian economy, compare the City of London to the UK economy for reasonable context. Now SIX gas pipelines enter Ukraine from Russia, and TWO from Belarus. These traverse and interlace in Ukraine and exit as six pipelines into Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania. [See diagram: http://euroskept.blogspot.be/2014/02/20140224-eu-red-tape-is-costing-uk.html%5D. The existence of the Russian naval base in Sebastopol is a convenient permanent pincer arm for any Russian move, and the enforcement of a whole-Ukraine policy and will be maintained for this reason alone, let alone access to the Black Sea.

    Europe gets best value gas from Russia, and Russia gets best price from us. Or we would go elsewhere, and so would they. This is big bucks, and big future energy sourcing – gas is going to increase in importance not decrease – ask the Russians, Israelis, Qataris, etc. So, if Putin needs to quell the entire country and secure the pipelines, he will. Suicide bombing or other pipeline attacks will bring a huge acceleration of military presence if it occurs. Energy markets are critical to civilisation, and this is going to be a pivot point for us all.

    • silverminer says:

      At least the Russians are involved in honest work in their extraction of energy resources. If the City of London is the jewel in crown of British industry, then we really have been laid very low when we have to rely on running a fraudulent, global, debt serf Ponzi scheme to earn (steal would be a better word) a crust in the world. We need to start looking at some alternatives because all Ponzi schemes collapse eventually and where does that leave the UK with banking assets at 800% of GDP? We can see now that there are forces in the world who aren’t going along with this play book and the people in the West are starting to wake up to what’s being done in their name. The Banksters hubris will bring them down.

  4. Anne Palmer says:

    Exactly why do you think it bothers Mr Cameron at all if Scotland breaks away from the rest of the United Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and NORTHERN IRELAND? Mr Cameron is the one that deliberately chose to follow the EU’s Committee of the Regions on behalf of the European Union to divide the once whole Country and Nation of ENGLAND into EU REGIONS with elected Mayors. As far as the EU is concerned, within the United Kingdom, Scotland is classed, along with the rest of the UK, just REGIONS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION. Mr Cameron did something that Hitler never managed to do in the last war-divide the people into EU REGIONS. In fact in one sense, that war drew the whole of the people in the UNITED Kingdom together, for all the people helped each other. Scotland took a terrible battering in the raids as well as major cities in the rest of the Country. However, the longer the people of this Country has tasted bits of what is yet to come from the EU, and how willing those from the three major Political Parties want to remain in the EU, and by voting for them has kept us all trapped in the EU since 1972/3 It is doubtful if they will ever get into Parliament again-for we want out of the EU and come the General Election in 2015 we will only vote for those that also want FREEDOM FROM FOREIGN RULE.

  5. neilfutureboy says:

    The automatic corollary of that argument is that those who support separation cannot, if they are patriots, support EU membership – but this is precisely, while asserting that the Scots people should not have a right to a referendum on EU membership, the SNP case.

    The case for joining in 1707 was, from the Scots view, that we would get free trade within the Empire – virtually all economists agree that was a good thing for Scotland and not a bad one for England since free trade is inherently good. At the time the argument for England was a security one – that these islands are more secure as a union, which still applies. 300 years have strengthened the British demos. In fact, despite propaganda and the biases introduced by the corrupt FPTP electoral system Scottish political opinion is generally no more than 3% to the “left” of English & sometimes (eg on lowering Corporation Tax, which worked in Ireland) well to the “right” of England. The case for separation from England is undeniably not remotely as good as for separating from the EU.

    • David Rosser Owen says:

      Let’s not forget that the Union effectively began in 1603 with the Union of the Crowns on James VI’s accession to the (Tudor) monarchy. On moving his Court to London many Scots went too, so that there were many bitchings about the numbers of Scots in London.

      However, the Act of Union 1707 had another effect that is little commented upon. It was the unifying possibilities and effects of this Act that made Scotland into one country. Prior to this, Scotland was at least two “countries”, with the Stuart monarchy in Edinburgh waging a long war against the Gaidhealtachd of the Highlands and Islands mostly by subterfuge and murder, and genocidal policies such as contained in the Statute of Iona 1609.

      The Union has worked to the benefit of all the inhabitants of the British Isles, and narrow fantasy nationalisms are simply feeding the relentless Brussels landgrabbing machine through helping to break the UK up – and that applies to “English” Nationalists as much as it does “Scottish” Nationalists [I put them in quotes because due to our 400+ years together the populations are inextricably mixed together].

      • neilfutureboy says:

        That is a one sided way of describing the conflict between Highlands and Lowlands but I take your point. If Scotland separated it might not be the end of it. Orkney and Shetland might well choose either to stay in the union, independence or an Isle of Man solution (this is important because most of the oil is in what would be their territorial waters). The western Isles, “Lordship of the Isles or various combinations of Highlands might also, in time make the same choice. And I am not sure that David Mandell’s constituency, on the border and the only Tory one in the soon to be Scottish Soviet, would not choose to remain UK. As Crimea, South Ossetia, Republica Srpska, Kosovo and eastern Kosovo & east and west South Sudan prove, once you start dividing there is no absolute stopping point.

      • Me_Again says:

        All correct David but I think English nationalism is more derived from a sense of grievance about the lack of equity in the system and the extra money given to the other three which is seen as a bribe to stay -but at the expense of those in England.

        I think a vote in all four countries would put this to bed forever whether the countries were joined by the sword or the sceptre, it is time the question -like the EU- was asked and answered one final time. After which when all have voted ‘IN’ the UK and out of the EU, we can set about levelling the playing field so that English nationalism dies a death along with the others. Perhaps then we could go back to having one MP for each person instead of several -after we escape the EU of course.

  6. Patriot says:

    If my memory is correct Roger, did not the EU say many years ago that the UK had to be divided into three regions. No doubt the maxim “united we stand, divided we fall” aqpplies!

    • Roger Helmer MEP says:

      I think it’s nine. Or ten.

      • silverminer says:

        It’s twelve. Note also the moves to consolidate local government at a level beneath the county, for example Cheshire which had been split into two and no longer exists. The play is to split Westminster powers between Brussels and the new regions (inc Scotland) and split local government powers between the new regions (which will get policing) and a single tier of local government (bin emptying etc) not based on the traditional county. England and the Counties will cease to exist. Destruction of the nation state is the objective. Expose and oppose!

      • Anne Palmer says:

        Nine for ENGLAND alone. Then Wales is one EU Region as is Northern Ireland and then the Nation and Country of Wles is classed as one EU Region . The whole of the United Kingdom of our once GREAT BRITAIN divided up-EAGERLY BY OUR PRESENT PRIME MINISTER, Mr David Cameron.

    • eddie coke says:

      As Roger said, it’s England to be broken up into nine EU regions (and the UK broken into twelve) roughly as follows:

      UKK – Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset, Wiltshire, Gloucestershire
      UKJ – Hampshire, Sussex, Surrey, Kent, Berkshire, Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire
      UKI – London (a city region, not a Capital City)
      UKH – Suffolk, Norfolk, Essex, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire
      UKL – formerly Wales
      UKG – Shropshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, Warwickshire, Staffordshire
      UKF – Northamptonshire, Leicestershire, Rutland, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire
      UKD – Cheshire, Lancashire, Cumbria
      UKE – South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, East Riding
      UKC – Durham, Northumberland
      UKM – formerly Scotland
      UKN – formerly Northern Ireland

      Democracy (if we must, and my sentiments broadly follow those of the late Aaron Russo on this) can only work if the population is small enough. Imagine if the new Federal State of Europe had a referendum on where to site its landfill site and chose the little island off the continent. Presumably, us 65 million would vote No to living in a rubbish dump; and the other 435 million would say, “Yes, sounds great because it’s not in my back yard!”

      And this is why – as many UKIP MEPs have said – the UK has little or no influence at all in the EU.

      BTW, you can find a ton more information about the regional breakup of Britain on Youtube – a video called Britain on the Brink (it’s a bit dated now, but still relevant).

  7. Eric Worrall says:

    Independence from Whitehall might be the best thing which could happen to Scotland.

    Cowperthwaite, the Scottish civil servant who created the Asian Miracle while serving as finance minister in Hong Kong, spent much of his career resisting efforts from Whitehall to interfere in Hong Kong’s economy. He even famously refused to collect detailed economic statistics, on the grounds that it would just encourage bureaucrats to fiddle with the economy.

    The Barnett formula might be what is causing Scotland’s economy to falter – http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-man-behind-the-hong-kong-miracle#axzz2uqrUdS9b

  8. DICK R says:

    Most English people would welcome separation from Scotland at a stroke we would rid ourselves of 41 Labour MPs plus several LIB dems and assorted SNP MPs.
    In fact I see it as our duty to goad the whinging malcontents into voting for independence ,the sooner the better .

  9. Me_Again says:

    I hope Scotland choose to stay but would wish for a repeat referendum across the other three in order to put it all to bed, once and for all. Once we have all decided we are better off together we can fix the rest.

    But this Roger, shouts of the elitism, the statism, the ‘we know betterism’ of the political classes that we [UKIP] are supposed to oppose.
    “… broad political consensus in England that the Barnett Formula is a price worth paying…”

    No. Scotland must vote to stay not because of some bribery at England’s expense. Same with the others. England should not be drained at their expense, if they cannot manage without Barnett’s dreaded formula what hope for separate existence?

    It should be tailed off over 5 years or so.

  10. Bruce says:

    Roger, you’ve missed one very important point. Politics. As a Scot, I know that a huge majority of my fellow countrymen HATE anyone who votes Tory, UKIP or for any right of centre party. It’s not that they just have a preference for left of centre politics: they actively despise the right. (Many nationalists used to have a loathing of the English, too, but the PC movement has given that strong overtones of racism so they tend now to hide those feelings. Hating Tories is still worn as a badge of honour).

    Scotland is overwhelmingly a socialist country. There’s hardly anyone up here who understands concepts such as the Austrian school of economics or small government. That, in my opinion, is what drives separatism: left wing Scots cannot bear the thought of being shackled (as they see it) to a country that occasionally lumbers them with a Tory government. There’s no way round it other than enabling my country to fulfil its destiny as a socialist hell-hole. Everyone wants to be employed by the state or on benefits.

    For the record, I was a natural Tory when the Tories were Tories and now vote UKIP. And I can’t think of any other nation I’d rather have for neighbours than the English.

  11. silverminer says:

    Regarding the Ukraine situation, I agree with Roger that a split looks sensible. However, I also think it’s none of our (the West’s) business, nor was Syria, Libya, Iraq, Yugoslavia or Afghanistan etc. Time we minded our own business. We create these problems by meddling ($5 billion worth of meddling according to that imbecile Nuland, courtesy of the Soros Foundation no doubt) and when we do this on Russia and China’s doorsteps we risk nuclear war. That both these nations have the capability to bomb us back into the Stone Age which should give us pause for thought before sticking our noses in.

    Would very much like to see UKIP adopt an explicitly non-interventionist foreign policy, as Ron Paul did in 2012, and I even think our continued membership of NATO should be reviewed. Who is the enemy here? The Neocons in Washington are so full of hubris they will lead us to the brink and I have no confidence in the likes of Obama, Kerry, Cameron and Hague. The Swiss have it right on defence and foreign policy as with so much else.

    • I think we have, Silverminer. Not sure we have tied ourselves with a permanent commitment — you can’t be sure what will arise. But we agree that British forces should not be committed unless there is a real and pressing threat to the UK, and also a reasonable prospect of success. So not Afghanistan, not Libya, not Syria. And certainly not Ukraine.

  12. Right wingery says:

    Oh the irony of Helmer supporting unity. Roger ‘turncoat’ Helmer wouldn’t know unity if it rose from the seas and slapped him in the face.

    • Have you actually read what I wrote above? There is a strong case for p0olitical union in the UK. There is no case for political union in the EU. And I explain why, in some detail.

    • Right wingery says:

      I do not disagree with your posting. I disagree with the principle that someone can espouse unity (in the case of the UK) whilst at the same time demonstrating none to the political party responsible for his seat on the gravy train.

      • neilfutureboy says:

        I believe I pointed out to you RW, on a previous post where you pushed this offensive and dishonest line, that if you are not a complete hypocrite, you must be on record as equally having publicly called on all Tory MPs to have resigned their seats when Cameron told them they were to break his “cast iron” manifesto promise of a referendum (the previous not the current promise).

        I asked you to provide links to where you had made this honourable stand. Astonishingly you didn’t.

        Perhaps this time you will be willing to lest us see what an honourable, and in no way corrupt, g hypocritical, fellow you are?

      • Right wingery says:

        Neil – I read, and then reread, your post and I am still quite unsure as to what on earth you are talking about. You still don’t have a clue about what Cameron was saying, either, regarding the ‘cast iron guarantee’.

        What links do you want, and how does that have anything to do with my criticisms of someone who made hay when going after the likes of Bill Newton Dunne for switching parties but then does it himself.

        Helmer demanded BND resign when he defected to the LD. Why, then, has Helmer not resigned for switching to UKIP? Or do these Helmer-rules only exist if you are defecting left-wards?

      • neilfutureboy says:

        RW I do know what Cameron’s “cast iron promise” was and could link to it if it helped.

        However I am quite certain you know what it was too.

        And that you understand perfectly well why, if you honestly believed the insults you have been saying about Mr Helmer, you could not possibly have failed to say the same about all Tories who were elected on that promise and broke it.

        If you had behaved in that honourable (albeit wrong on the Helmer case and arguably so on Tories needing to resign) way you would have no slightest difficulty in producing links to where you had said it and would certainly not have to rely on claiming not to be able to understand simple English.

        So can you produce links to you calling for Tories to stand down because they broke the manifesto promise or not? Simple English.

      • Right wingery says:

        Neil – you and ‘simple English’ do not go together at all well!

  13. Ex-expat Colin says:

    I think one of the most awful effects of Mr Salmonds venture into UK separation is that there exists many Scots and relations elsewhere that will find themselves rather lost…to put it mildly. I should say very frightened?

    These are the ordinary people who know nothing of politics, finance, corporates and international topics. Just ordinary people who I suspect do not vote because they simply do not understand such topics adequately. Perhaps living is difficult enough – I know it is!

    So along comes this man and friends and thats it – you will follow. Think of the wider effects of it.

    I had the feeling that the SNP always wanted the energy reserves that belong to Scotland, also had the feeling they might want the back payments (with interest) for what we elsewhere have used over the years?

    Whats said about energy supplies/reserves above (top) is right….it will be something to fight over. Doubt the EU will be much good at that as most of the European military may have to be in bed by 7pm. Think that was the case in Iraq/Afghan.

    Could get a Spanish Navy ship to wander in….likely NOT this time.

  14. Anne Palmer says:

    And now our Prime Minister is setting WALES on the same trail as Scotland. Determined to destroy the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Can’t he see that once he has completely broken up this once GREAT Country, there will be no need of anyone in that once highly respected Houses of Parliament and the EU State will Govern ALL its REGIONS from Brussels?

    • Me_Again says:

      Let everyone have a vote, once and for all. It is the democratic way. When it is all done we can get rid of all the MSPs, MIPs and assemblymen and just have some sort of regional representation. After all they will still have their Westminster MPs. Look at the incredible waste of money for having two sets of everything. Jobs for the bloody boys.

      Until the people have decided that we are better together then there will always be nats.

      This is only the same as the EU.

      • Anne Palmer says:

        We are indeed having a vote. We are going to use the General Election as the REFERENDUM we have been denied, and, as we know-without doubt- all three major Political Parties want to remain in the EU-Forever, there is absolutely no point in voting for any of those major three. Vot only for those Political parties or Organisations that want out of the EU. I believe that this may well be the only way we may beg our Country back. Knowing a little of what is to come from the EU in 2020, 2030 and some even for 2050, I firmly believe that 2015 is the last chance the people of this Country may well have to set ourselves FREE from foreign rule.

      • Me_Again says:

        Yes Anne I’m well aware of that, but the topic was UK centric.

      • Anne is absolutely right. The May euro-elections are the referendum we were promised and denied. If you love Brussels, any of the old parties will do, because they all want to stay in. If not, vote UKIP.

  15. Mike Stallard says:

    “…the Union of the UK is a good thing, whilst our membership of the EU is a bad thing – and I see no inconsistency at all in that position.”
    Now look luvvie, if you listen to the BBC Radio 4, you must believe it. It was said by a woman!

  16. Anne Palmer says:

    Not only do I want to use the MAY Euro elections as the REFERENDUM we have been denied, I also want the GENERAL ELECTION used as the “BACK UP” REFERENDUM. Recognise that even since 1972/3 we have been tied, bound and GAGGED by the EEC/EC and now EU and what Political Parties have the people elected into (ALLEGED) GOVERNMENT in that once GREAT Houses of Parliament? One of the three major Political Parties and all THREE want to remain in the EU paying £billions to do so, and are prepared to rob even children, the sick and the out of work of their money to do so. Each of you have the chance in 2015 to make sure we are set free from foreign rule-without war5, without fighting, killing and maining, by just putting down a little cross on the right place on that scrap of paper. By the side or any Political party or organisation that wants out of the EU- for good. From “what is to come from the EU” after 2015, i doubt any country will be able to set themselves free from foreign rule ever again, particularly here in the UK- after that last chance-for as long as people keep putting “THEIR PARTY” before their Country, it will indeed always be so.

    As for Scotland? I hope the people of Scotland vote to remain in the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and fight along side of us in the bid to free ourselves forever from the European Union. As proven in the last war, we fought together then, we can fight to set ourselves FREE now-if we remain UNITED TOGETHER NOW.

    • Me_Again says:

      What brand of soap is your box from Anne? I want to try it to see if it improves my rants……..apart from Paul and the occasional visiting migrant Troll, we are all no doubt in agreement with you which is why we come here

      • Anne Palmer says:

        My brand of soap, once in its box is more or less made out of what was left of the House we once lived in after the bombing on the outskirts of Manchester Me_Again during that last war. I do not recomend any part of it-forgot to mention all the soot from the much used chimneys in those days, absolutely everywhere. Not much fun living in a House with no windows and doors etc plus some of your friends and neighbours in the houses near to you, didn’t survive. Even TODAY where those Houses once were, remain just empty ground, that empty ground has never been built on since. I will never get off my “Soap Box”, for I fight for all those that gave THEIR lives for YOUR Freedom AND WHAT HAVE THOSE THAT WE STUPIDLY SEND TO PARLIAMENT DO?. THEY PAY FOREIGNERS TO DO THE JOB WE SEND OUR OWN TO A BRITISH PARLIAMENT TO GOVERN THIS COUNTRY “ACCORDING TO LAW” and that law is the same Common Law Constitution so many gave their lives for in 1939-1945.

      • Me_Again says:

        No one is [certainly not me] disagreeing with you. I was just trying to say that you sound like Steve Wright’s Mr Angry. You are preaching to converts. However, I frequently go off on one in frustration.
        Both my grandparents houses, unfortunately on the route from and on the route back to Germany, were endangered from bombs discarded randomly because they were too afraid to go further or had a couple left on the way back. My Grandfather and mother on dad’s side were bombed out completely and the house opposite my other grandparents took a hit and blew all their windows out. But before that I had lost two great uncles in WW1 aged 15 and 17 at sea, had one grandfather a POW from 1915 to the end, had one who was on the Somme and the lucky to be in Ireland for the Easter rebellion instead of the Somme. The grandfather I was named for, John Henry was on the light cruiser Glasgow when it and her companions met with Admiral von Spee’s East Asiatic squadron off Coronel on November 1st, 1914. His ship was the only survivor vessel and there were no survivors from the others. On December 8th in his ship was in action against them again, this time with the upper hand. I have a photograph of him on the jetty at Port Stanley, Chief Petty Officer Engineering Artificer John Henry such and such. Sixty eight years later, his grandson, another Chief Petty Officer, had a photograph taken in exactly the same place after another series of battles but obviously not with the Germans that time. Meanwhile, in WW2 Uncle Jack was a para at Arnhem and his only war story was that the Rhine was a mile wide at the point he went in, with his boots around his neck, he had no idea how he got across because he couldn’t swim. Whilst he was doing that another uncle was on the arctic conveys to Murmansk. Uncle Brian didn’t come back. My Uncle Trev joined the Air force and sensibly stayed on the ground. Uncle Art went to sea as well, he was sunk in the med in 42 but was picked up and stayed in Malta for 5 months losing two stone in weight. My younger brother served in the army for a total of 16 years including tours in Ireland and Bosnia, he spent time documenting war crimes having to visit the sites. My brother law was in the Falklands too but on the Hermes, not with me. Cousin Roger was on the Alacrity. I managed 16 years too, the last five flying SAR from Culdrose and Portland. My Nephew Steven has just finished his first tour in Afghanistan with the Apache detachment and my niece Lauren has just in this last week joined the army intelligence corps.

        I’ve probably missed half a dozen out but anyway I think the point that I know what freedom costs, is well made.

  17. Anne Palmer says:

    BEFORE I DIE. To all those that sit in those Houses of Parliament

    Before I die, I need to know WHY
    You each gave our country away?
    Why you signed that treacherous Treaty
    Without giving the people a say?
    Before I die, I need to know HOW
    You managed to deceive us so?
    All those who placed in YOU their trust
    How was it even THEY didn’t know?

    Before I die I need to know WHERE
    We will be able to trust again
    Our fellow man-all on the same side,
    Oh, how I need to know when?
    Before I die I need to know WHO
    Can look me straight in the eye?
    Yet betray once more with that manicured hand
    And for their own ends tell lie after lie?

    Before I die I need to know IF
    Our Country will once more be free?
    So many millions died for that end
    How could you ignore their plea?
    Before I die I would like to KNOW
    How you can sleep at night?
    For heavy the weight will lie on you
    That you didn’t learn wrong from right.

    Before YOU die I want YOU to know
    I’d rather have fought and lost.
    For to do what YOU between you have done
    You WILL come to know the true dreadful cost.
    Before you die I want you to know THAT
    Britannia will once again rule the waves,
    Never again will foreigners rule
    For the English and St George was saved.

    • catalanbrian says:

      The people did have a say. They elected Members of Parliament to represent them in these matters. And the people have the opportunity to change these representatives every 5 years. You will note that they have not voted UKIP, so you can reasonably assume that the electorate in general have been pretty content with the status quo thus far.

  18. neilfutureboy says:

    On most actual issues we Scots are not the leftist nutters the media tell both sides we are. We average about 3 points to the “left” on most issues – on some such as following the Irish example of cutting corporation taxes we are significantly to the “right”.

    The problem is that our corrupt FPTP electoral system artificially heightens divisions with about 40% of the population in the south of England producing 90% Tory MPs and 40% in the north producing 90% Labour. This is immensely damaging to the entire country – the Scots/English division is merely the wide end of the wedge.

    That the LabCons want to retain an openly corrupt electoral system for their own electoral advantage, despite the immense damage it does to the country ((not just in geographical divisions) says volumes about them.

    I suspect a lot of LibDem voters would take us as their practical choice if we pushed our PR policy more. As well as others among the 80% who consistently say they support PR. Probably rising if the next election becomes the game of chance it looks like being.

    • Me_Again says:

      Neil, agree with all you say and would add one more point. The old classification of political parties as left or right is damaging in itself. Your point about voters being two points to the left on this three points to the right on that, hits it straight in the bullseye. that is the essence of UKIP, hopefully our leaders will have loosely left wing policies and right wing policies in order to make commonsense the order of the day. Neither left nor right just commonsense is a pretty good mantra.

      I refuse to conform to the old left/right posturing of the ‘old’ parties.

      The only good word I have to say about the EU is the way they elect the MEPs.

  19. Anne Palmer says:

    IS THIS THE RIGHT THING TO DO

    Should Scotland become independent?
    Under the watch of our Conservative PM?
    Will he forever be known as “The Wrecker”?
    Never to be listened to ever again?
    Alec Salmond embraces isolation,
    He wants HIS country to be free,
    Yet will eagerly join the European Union,
    Lose Sovereignty for ever, is THAT what is to be?

    To break away from the spoken English?
    And freedom at last be won?
    To join up to the European Union,
    The Devils work at last be done.
    Twice before in loving memory,
    Just one hundred years ago,
    To conquer and destroy our sovereignty
    Recorded in history, be it ever so.

    Alec Salmond wants to keep our Stirling Currency,
    Yet all three Parties did strongly declare,
    That no way could they use that again
    For the Euro is waiting for them there.
    For the EU thinks well far ahead,
    It knows exactly what it wants,
    Although it has taken many years,
    To be in control of us and ALL the Continent.

    Yet come the General Election
    In the year of 2015,
    Elect UKIP or others that want freedom,
    And your simple “cross” may set us free.
    Leave not one untouched Ballot Form,
    For others may then to use,
    Use your cross well, placed by those you know,
    Or your Country you well may lose.

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